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	<title>Comments on: Mocking frameworks are like cologne</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/mocking-frameworks-are-like-cologne/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/mocking-frameworks-are-like-cologne/</link>
	<description>colorful back and forth from two highly opinionated programmers</description>
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		<title>By: Eric Neunaber</title>
		<link>http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/mocking-frameworks-are-like-cologne/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Neunaber]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 2010 01:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/?p=1155#comment-409</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I felt that one of the &quot;signs&quot; that our mocked class was doing too much was in how hard it became to setup the object for test. If my test setup became longer than three to five lines, I have to wonder if it&#039;s doing too much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I felt that one of the &#8220;signs&#8221; that our mocked class was doing too much was in how hard it became to setup the object for test. If my test setup became longer than three to five lines, I have to wonder if it&#8217;s doing too much.</p>
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		<title>By: Zac Duncan</title>
		<link>http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/mocking-frameworks-are-like-cologne/#comment-364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zac Duncan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/?p=1155#comment-364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think it&#039;s quite like that. 

There&#039;s a fairly old codebase at our work that was written from a strongly anti-mocking framework POV. The result is god classes, insanely deep levels of coupling and massive, hand-written mocks that are so complicated that they themselves have to be unit tested.  

There&#039;s another side of that codebase that&#039;s been written with a heavy, strict mockist POV. The result was an anemic, somewhat overly complicated design and brittle tests that don&#039;t support refactoring. 

Here&#039;s the thing, if you don&#039;t pay attention to simplicity and cleanlines then any testing approach that will wind up hiding or encouraging poor design.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s quite like that. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a fairly old codebase at our work that was written from a strongly anti-mocking framework POV. The result is god classes, insanely deep levels of coupling and massive, hand-written mocks that are so complicated that they themselves have to be unit tested.  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s another side of that codebase that&#8217;s been written with a heavy, strict mockist POV. The result was an anemic, somewhat overly complicated design and brittle tests that don&#8217;t support refactoring. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the thing, if you don&#8217;t pay attention to simplicity and cleanlines then any testing approach that will wind up hiding or encouraging poor design.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Berridge</title>
		<link>http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/mocking-frameworks-are-like-cologne/#comment-363</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Berridge]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/?p=1155#comment-363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good call Ben!  From an &quot;object role stereotype&quot; (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc721605.aspx) perspective, the object I was testing might be classified as a coordinator.  Thus all the dependencies.  But your suggestion of combining some of the dependencies into a single umbrella class is interesting.  I may be missing a domain concept that could help combine and abstract some of the logic...

In fact, I&#039;m pretty sure I wouldn&#039;t use that technique exactly as described today.  It was later pointed out to me that the use of the default mock w/ no behavior specified was a smell of it&#039;s own.  This probably deserves a follow-up post on my part...  But in short, while the given test may not care to verify anything on one of it&#039;s dependencies, it was very naive of me to assume it was OK to not even describe the mock&#039;s behavior.  Now-a-days I create a repository of &quot;working&quot; default mocks (which could be mocks or stubs) and would use one of those instead of an empty default.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good call Ben!  From an &#8220;object role stereotype&#8221; (<a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc721605.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc721605.aspx</a>) perspective, the object I was testing might be classified as a coordinator.  Thus all the dependencies.  But your suggestion of combining some of the dependencies into a single umbrella class is interesting.  I may be missing a domain concept that could help combine and abstract some of the logic&#8230;</p>
<p>In fact, I&#8217;m pretty sure I wouldn&#8217;t use that technique exactly as described today.  It was later pointed out to me that the use of the default mock w/ no behavior specified was a smell of it&#8217;s own.  This probably deserves a follow-up post on my part&#8230;  But in short, while the given test may not care to verify anything on one of it&#8217;s dependencies, it was very naive of me to assume it was OK to not even describe the mock&#8217;s behavior.  Now-a-days I create a repository of &#8220;working&#8221; default mocks (which could be mocks or stubs) and would use one of those instead of an empty default.</p>
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